Let's Talk Compassion Fatigue, Cat Behavior and More!

Transcripts

[00:00:03]
 Hello. Hello, my friends and fellow animal lovers. Welcome to another episode of the Story of My Pet podcast. I'm excited to meet a new friend today. I've been joined by all the way from Auckland, New Zealand, Molly Kelsey.
 
 [00:00:19]
 I just asked to say how I say your last name. Is it Kelsey? It's Kelsey. Yeah. Okay.
 
 [00:00:28]
 Welcome to the podcast, Molly Kelsey. Thank you. Thanks for having me. I'm very excited to have you with me today. I'm going to tell everybody a bit more about you before we get into our conversation.
 
 [00:00:42]
 Molly is an avid foster and former vet nurse. She's worked with animals for over ten years in companion animal practice and volunteering in both New Zealand and overseas at animal sanctuaries and shelters. Sound like you have a lot of amazing experience. Last year she completed her postgrad studies in feline behavior and now runs her own cat behavior consulting business. She is one of the very few people working exclusively with cats in New Zealand.
 
 [00:01:14]
 Her work centers around teaching owners to understand their cats better and help them thrive in their environment. She currently lives with her partner and their rats, although they're hoping to get their rat a new partner too. And when she's not working with cat, she'll find your curled up with a cup of tea and listening to a true crime podcast. I love that. Or doing embroidery.
 
 [00:01:37]
 Well, that sounds like a fun afternoon to meet. Thank you, Molly, again for being here. Thank you. I'm looking forward to our little chat. It's going to be good.
 
 [00:01:47]
 Yes. So you have done a lot of different things around animals, so kind of go back to your childhood. Is that when your love for animals started? Definitely. You could ask my parents anything about what I loved when I was growing up.
 
 [00:02:04]
 It would be animals. I dragged them to many an animal park and sanctuary and I hate to say it, like petting zoo when I was younger, like anything with animals, I was like, can we please go here? I will do anything so we can go here. And my poor siblings, they enjoyed it initially, but after the 10th or 20th one, we're a bit over it. So I think I was living and breathing animals from a very early age.
 
 [00:02:33]
 Sounds like it, yes. I totally get that. I was the same way. If animals are involved, I don't want to do it. So when did you start doing fostering?
 
 [00:02:46]
 It would have been when I was at uni for vet nursing, so I would have been 17. I started then with kittens and I slowly brought home hedgehogs birds. If there was a mouse at one point bought home the occasional dog I found wandering. But luckily we've been on a track down the owners and yeah, kind of just bun on from there. I think working with animals as a job, coming across a lot of animals who needed some extra care they just ended up at my house because if no one else is going to take them, then I couldn't not right, absolutely.
 
 [00:03:30]
 So you went to university to become a vet nurse. How long did you work in that area? I'd probably say about three years. I unfortunately became quite ill when I turned 20 and it got a bit hard juggling working life with hospital visits and being off work all the time. So I actually took a year off to just reset and check where I was at and that kind of just gave me the opportunity to move into like a more administration role, but still working at a clinic.
 
 [00:04:04]
 And I did miss the nursing, but it was nice to still be able to work with animals, but in a way that my body was a bit more cooperative with. Yeah, I think people don't realize how stressful it can be to be a veterinarian, vet, tech, nurse, all of that, and it can really take a toll on you, not just emotionally, but also physically. Definitely. It's a very demanding role field to be in. Yes.
 
 [00:04:33]
 And it's funny, we're recording this right now. I believe I just saw a post about it being Vet Tech Appreciation Week here in the US. I think it might be worldwide. So people don't realize how you guys really become attached to the animals and taking care of them and what they're dealing with. And we call it compassion fatigue.
 
 [00:04:52]
 You get exhausted just because of how much you care and want to help all the animals you see. Yeah. The mental health kind of education and awareness in the industry is slowly getting better. But I think a lot of it is the public's perception and treatment of veterinary staff. Until that gets healthier and there's a bit more understanding and empathy towards veterinary staff, I feel like people working in the industry are going to be fighting that uphill to enjoy and thrive in an environment like that.
 
 [00:05:29]
 Absolutely. No, I think it's really an important thing to talk about. We've heard a lot more about compassion with people's health, with human health, especially after COVID and the pandemic, hearing all the stories of what doctors and nurses were going through, but vets and their staff went through the same thing. You guys were having to still take care of animals during COVID and have all the precautions and you're trying to help everybody and help their animals. So, yeah, it's definitely important topic for people to learn more about.
 
 [00:06:01]
 Yeah, I think like a lot of other frontline workers, you know, industries like catering or they're not kind of put on the same level as, say, healthcare workers. Not that what healthcare workers are doing isn't very high risk and difficult, but with veterinary, we were still open, we were still seeing patients. There was the added pressure and emotional toll of owners not being able to be in the clinic when treatment was being done and having to make decisions that were kind of calibrated towards reduced income from people due to COVID that's had an impact as well on staff. Wellbeing, is a lot of people now are having to budget and make really decisions that they might not have prepondemic, which affects the amount of care or level of care we can provide animals. Absolutely.
 
 [00:06:58]
 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. It's hard on the pet parents. It's hard on the vet and the staff and everybody. You're trying to do everything you can, but sometimes we have to make decisions because of our financial situation.
 
 [00:07:13]
 And I actually heard a new term recently, it's called economic euthanasia because people aren't able to pay more for whatever it is, test treatment, et cetera. And sometimes that's the conversation that has to be had, and that's very difficult for everybody involved. Yeah, it's one of those things that comes with peer ownership and working with animals in general is money isn't everything, but it helps. And unfortunately, like in New Zealand, we have subsidized government healthcare for humans. For animals, not so much.
 
 [00:07:51]
 And even if you do have pet insurance, which I always tell people, get it. If you don't need it, you're lucky. If you need it, you're very lucky you have it. And even if you do have it, sometimes bills are racking up into over ten grand. And a lot of people, most people don't have that just sitting on the side to use.
 
 [00:08:13]
 A lot of people have got to choose between feeding their families or getting their dog's leg amputated. It's really sad, right? No, it's very true. I have two cats and one of them is diabetic. And you can't find cheap insulin for pets.
 
 [00:08:32]
 It's hard to find good priced insulin for humans, but for pets, it costs a lot for us to keep it. We would never not do it. But it's been a struggle. And I know I can't even imagine for someone dealing, like you said, with the major surgery or cancer treatment or something when it's in the thousands. So we have to realize how hard it is for us.
 
 [00:08:53]
 But it's also hard for you guys as the ones really giving the pets the actual health treatment that they need. Definitely. We only want to help and we want what's best for your pet. But sometimes that is kind of governed by how much the owners can afford. Right?
 
 [00:09:14]
 And that doesn't make it like, you know, we're not putting down owners or saying you're a bad owner or anything. It's just we do understand that there is a cost and there is a line for 99.9% of people. There is a line of how much? And then there's also, if we do treat them, what quality of life will they have afterwards? Or are they at an age where they might pass away within a few months?
 
 [00:09:40]
 Regardless of this treatment being done? There's all these factors to consider and money is just one of those ones that is very difficult to try to navigate. Yeah, it's not a black or white decision. There's a lot going into it. And like you said, pets age and their overall health, sometimes there's a list of issues they have because of a new diagnosis or treatment that maybe you don't expect or anticipate.
 
 [00:10:09]
 There's so much to consider. So what made you decide to go from working in a vet office or center into doing cat behavior work? I think it was a combination of my own experience with fostering cats over the years, and then one of my own, my only foster fail ever. He was a very unique cat. And then just coming across a lot of cats who are suffering mentally, and the owners were also suffering because they didn't understand why their cats were behaving the way they were.
 
 [00:10:48]
 And they'd be asking for help from the veterinarians, the vet techs, the vet, nurses. And a lot of us aren't trained in behavior as much as we would like to be. And often people only come to us for that sort of help when it's got really bad, when it can no longer be ignored. And that's another challenge in itself. And I just came across so many cats and owners that needed help.
 
 [00:11:15]
 And I knew that there were trainers and behaviors out there for dogs in New Zealand or plenty like in the US. Right. But when I looked at finding people who could assist with cats, all my clients, there were very few people that were qualified or educated to provide that service. And I sat down and I was like, I could do that, and kind of just rolled on from there. That's great.
 
 [00:11:42]
 Yes. I think, like you said, where you are here in the US. I think worldwide, we hear a lot more about dog behavior and dog training and puppy school, whatever you want to call it. But you don't hear that as much for cats. And cats are different than dogs, and they have their own their behavior changes mean something different than another animal would mean.
 
 [00:12:04]
 So I'm sure it is a very specialized area. Yeah, they're very unique. I actually think they're a lot more like people than dogs are. And I don't know what that says about people who don't like cats. That's true.
 
 [00:12:19]
 They remind me of people more than dogs do. I love them both, but yeah, they've always fascinated me. Yeah, I grew up with dogs. I didn't have my first cat till I was 25, and then I was like, why have I not had cats? They're my people.
 
 [00:12:38]
 Yeah, but it is a very different behavioral experience. So to become a cat behaviorist, what kind of process or schooling did you go through? So I did two and a half years of study with the International Society of Feline Medicine. They're based in the UK. So I did it by a distance which suits me quite well because I could just do it alongside work at the same time.
 
 [00:13:06]
 Right. And then I did a few more kind of upskilling courses and things like that. Afterwards, I earned my fair free certification. I think I finished it about a month ago, finally, so did that. And then in New Zealand, there's very little legislation for becoming certified.
 
 [00:13:29]
 At the moment, the only way that I'm aware of is to become certified with an organization called the International Association for Animal Behavior Consultants. And I'm about two years into the four years required to sit that certification exam. So just chipping away. It's a lot easier for people who work with dogs. I don't know if that's just because of the sheer volume and also the sheer volume of education providers versus cats, but I'm hoping in the future it's going to be a lot more wider spread.
 
 [00:14:12]
 But for now, you're kind of just chipping away at that time. But it will come around way quicker than I probably expect. Right? Yeah. That is a long time to become certified.
 
 [00:14:24]
 But I'm sure, like you said, it is partly because there just aren't as many options out there for cat behaviorists. But I'm glad there are people like you who are kind of pioneering it and trying to help, you know, get more people involved to be able to help our cats in that way. Yes. I think it's really important that if you are going to do anything where it is related to behavior and more of it just animal welfare, that you do learn from the right people and you do take the time. To invest in your education.
 
 [00:14:57]
 Because at the moment, anyone could go online and call themselves a behaviorist which is very scary, and they could be telling someone some advice that's very harmful and potentially dangerous, not just to the animal, but to people. And that's really scary. Even with cats, I've come across some really interesting advice that people have been told, which I was like, okay, that's a red flag about that person. But I mean, at least in New Zealand, there's very few people. So I kind of know who I suggest to people if they want to see someone in person and they're not in my city, or they need someone who's a veterinarian as well.
 
 [00:15:43]
 So I can be like, these people is who I'd recommend in the States. I can imagine it's a lot harder to narrow down because the sheer volume. Of people yeah, I see a lot more people saying they do different kinds of training and behavior things. Definitely. And it's growing, which is good.
 
 [00:15:59]
 But it's also, like you said, you want to make sure you get someone who really is trained well and is going to give you the right advice because you can do something pretty easily to make a situation worse and not better. Yeah. And you can do things that make the situation better for you, but worse for your animal. Right. Things like, I've seen people using shock collars or things like that where they're like, oh, he stopped doing problem A, and it's like, okay, but how is your cat feeling about that?
 
 [00:16:36]
 Right.
 
 [00:16:39]
 I still can't believe people still use those, but I digress. Yes. Oh, my gosh, I can't believe that either. Yeah, there's so many things. It's like you said, red flag.
 
 [00:16:51]
 Yes. And there's trainers that still advocate for them in prong collars in New Zealand. I just don't understand how that works with training for a happy and healthy animal. So what are some of the behavior issues that you see in your clients that you're helping their cats with? I see a lot of aggression cases where we've got cat on cat aggression, aggression towards people, aggression towards other pets or animals walking past, like a dog walking past.
 
 [00:17:29]
 I do deal with quite a few just general multicat tension failed introductions where people bought kitten home, and the ten year old cat has gone, no, thank you. And after a few months, owners are pulling their hair out, trying to figure out what they've done wrong and then how soiling and spraying those are very common. And I think COVID has bought this new wave of separation anxiety and just general. Annie some of these cats that were raised in that those first few formative months or six months in lockdown, or the owners were working from home and they're like, okay, this is our routine. This is what we're doing.
 
 [00:18:14]
 And then the owners are like, oh, lockdown is over. Restrictions lifted and went back to work and went out again. And the cats kind of weren't given an adjustment period. I've seen a few cases of that which I didn't really think about the repercussions of this pandemic on pets until I started working with these cats who were affected. Now that makes sense.
 
 [00:18:39]
 I know for me personally, I'm a pet sitter, and my business became busier when people started going back to work because they had adopted animals during. And it definitely is a big change for them if they're used to having one or more people home 24/7. So I can imagine with cats especially because they get a certain level of attention when someone is home all day versus them being gone for eight or 10 hours a day at work. Yeah. There was also not as common, but there was reverse cases where cats didn't like people all of a sudden being home.
 
 [00:19:12]
 24/7 they were used to having the whole house for themselves for five or 6 hours a day, and then suddenly the whole family was home. Yeah. Some cats were like, no, and they would have moved next door. And I felt bad for these people, but I did think it was kind of not funny, but I was like, I never would have thought cats are like, more attention, but bothering me and I guess they come down to cats, they love their routine, they don't like change and they like to have a choice. So I guess when the imposed lockdown happens, that does not happen, the choice gets taken away.
 
 [00:19:57]
 Yeah, no, that's true. Cats are very much routine and when it's different, they don't like it and they're going to let you know. And also just individual cat personality. Some cats are more like they don't care if someone is around as long as you're not bothering them. But others want a very quiet space to themselves.
 
 [00:20:18]
 Yeah, I like to think that there's the perfect cat for every person out there and vice versa. Perfect owner. Cats are so diverse in their personalities and experiences and what makes them thrive and what doesn't much like us. And I think that's what makes when you form a special bond with certain cats, it's just like you click on a whole nother level. And I had the privilege of meeting a lot of cats who have the sort of bonds with the owners and it's been really humbling to experience.
 
 [00:20:55]
 Yeah, we sometimes refer to it as our soul cat or soul dog, where whatever it is that brought you together and they just click and yes, my husband has that with one of our cats, Charlie. He didn't want me to bring them home and then they became BFFs. Happens way too often. It is amazing. I think sometimes people who have never had a cat don't realize that you can have that kind of bond with your cat just like a dog.
 
 [00:21:24]
 And they really do are there for your support and you're there for hit them. But you can also see changes in their behavior that are red flags that something's going on with them because they're not acting normal. Yeah, definitely. I often say to people like, you know your cat best even if you don't think so. It's sometimes stuff that we don't even register that we've noticed and it's not until someone asks the right questions that we go, oh yeah, they do do that, or oh, I have noticed he's doing less of this and that's part of my job.
 
 [00:21:57]
 It's just helping people see what they're already seeing and understanding why it's happening. So what would you say to people who they're starting to notice some behavior changes in their cat? What would you say might be the first thing for them to do? I would say to get a full physical exam with a veterinarian. A lot of behavioral issues so can be due to a physiological issue like arthritis.
 
 [00:22:30]
 If a cat is in using a litter box, all of a sudden, if it's joints or causing issues, it might not want to step into a highsided box. A cat that's aggressive to people when they go near its face, it might be having vision issues and then when people get up close, it gets a fright. So I always tell people rule out physical before moving on to the psychological and then from there just getting a help as soon as you are able to. It's always better to seal up a wound while it's fresh than when it's fested for a while. It's going to be more work the longer you leave something, because if it's a habit or a behavior that's not wanted, the more time that happens or occurs, the stronger it's going to be and the longer it will take to kind of break that'll shift.
 
 [00:23:23]
 That no, I think that's great advice because the longer we let something go, I mean, even with ourselves, the longer we let ourselves go without exercising or eating right, whatever it is, the harder it is to make the change. And it's the same thing with pets and absolutely the first question is, is there something physiologically wrong? I've had times with several of my cats where their behaviors have changed, where it has been and then also we couldn't find anything. OK, so something else is going on. So that's really great advice.
 
 [00:23:56]
 Really. You got to rule out the physical first and then see what's going on with them psychologically. Definitely. And sometimes it's something that's not even too intricate or complicated. It could be you don't have enough water bowls in the home and one of your cats is kind of stationing themselves by the only water bowl and then the other cat is getting stressed because they can't get water.
 
 [00:24:19]
 So they start spraying in the lounge because they can't get to the bowl and kitchen.
 
 [00:24:29]
 I had a cat, I guess it was over five years ago now that we did eventually find out that he had cancer. But we couldn't find anything wrong at first. But he started wanting to go to the bathroom in the closet and then he wanted and then that's the only place he would go. So we had to feed him there and give him water. Well then the other cats decided they really liked having a water dish in the bathroom.
 
 [00:24:50]
 And so even though he passed away and it's been years since he was there, we still have a water bowl in the master bathroom. And our cat Charlie now, who is diabetic, he'll lay there and let us know I need fresh water. And that's really the only place he drinks from now. So that's a really easy example of something where especially in a multi cat or multi pet home, that there can be a simple fix to help. Definitely understanding what they need from us and from their environment because we've placed them in our homes and if they're going to live there happily, we need to make sure that we've got all their needs met past the bear welfare requirements.
 
 [00:25:36]
 Physically having water in the house is a welfare requirement. Being in a state where you feel safe to access it, that's another level. To it right now. I like that so you've talked about you've done a lot of work fostering and things like that. So you probably do a lot of experience seeing people bring a new pet into a family, whether it's their only pet, their first pet or adding another pet.
 
 [00:26:05]
 What are some of the advice you give to people before adopting or in the process of adopting a new pet? First I say to people is if you have current pets, will they enjoy this new addition to the home? Not will they tolerate or alert to live with it? It's will their lives either remain the same or thrive even more often. We get a pet because we're like oh, we want another pet because we love having this one and sometimes that goes well, sometimes it doesn't.
 
 [00:26:45]
 And a lot of people have good intentions where they'll get a young pet to help their older pet be a bit more active or engage a bit more in life and sometimes that does work, sometimes it backspires terribly. So I have to tell people is to put your own want aside just for a second and to kind of not put yourself in their paws but just to think if I bring home the snoopy and say the introduction goes well, are they going to be better for it? And then I think that often changes the tune of what pet or what age pet they would be getting if they aren't going to still get one and then just not rushing in the introduction process. It's the number one thing that we people mess up if we're impatient and we want everyone integrated as soon as possible and best friends and Instagramworthy really fast. But sometimes it can take months of slow introduction process and that can be hard for us.
 
 [00:27:50]
 But in the long run it's better for everyone, it's safer and you're more likely to have two pets that have positive experiences with each other rather than some negative ones which kind of color things a bit in a negative way for the long term. Yeah, that's great advice. I think that's so important, especially when adding a pet to an existing for a family is is this about what you want or is it going to make your pet's life better? And sometimes we don't know until we try but definitely you want to think about your current pets first. I know I've had the same thing myself.
 
 [00:28:29]
 One of our cats doesn't like other cats much and I would love to bring home a new kitten but I don't think it would help him very well. It would probably make him more anxious and unhappy and even though I'd love more, it's probably the best decision not to for now and that can be difficult. As you said, when people are pet lovers and they want to help, they want to rescue but you really have to think about your situation and your environment and if you are going to try it. Like you said, a long process of introducing them is best because then the cats or the dogs or whatever animal you have is probably going to let you know how it's going. And if they want to get together sooner, that's great, but if they're saying no, then you want to give them that space in that time.
 
 [00:29:13]
 Yeah, letting them dictate how fast things go, not setting a timeline that's based on human wants or needs, keeping their wellbeing kind of at the forefront of things. And that looks different for individual animals being put together or even just bringing a new animal home and integrating it into the family of people. Some cats are, you know, scratching to get out of the base camp room from the first day and are confident walking around the house. And then there's other cats who take a week to come out from under the bed in the spare room where you put them. So it's kind of managing our expectations as well.
 
 [00:29:55]
 Absolutely, yeah. A lot of times the pets are going to dictate it their personalities, how much they want to be out. I've seen that happen on Pets I follow online where we kept them separated, but they knocked it down and wanted to get to be a part of each other and other people. Like, they've decided this is their room and that's where they feel safest for now. So those are really important points for people to think about ahead of time.
 
 [00:30:22]
 You also mentioned that you've had other kind of pets. You have a rat currently. You've lived with you've had a rabbit before. What is it like having different kinds of pet in one family and helping them all get along? What have you learned about that process?
 
 [00:30:42]
 I definitely learned to be a bit more inventive about keeping everyone kind of occupied, especially with having small prey animals like rats. And then you've got cats in the same house and dogs in the same house. Right. Luckily with my dog, who passed away earlier this year, he grew up with everything. I think by the time he got to 13, I was like, no more fosters for you, because I think he'd had enough.
 
 [00:31:14]
 I think he was a bit sick of it and just keeping everyone occupied. I was lucky. He never really was bothered about the rats. He got used to them very early when they came home. But I know that some people do struggle with having prey animals with an animal that would go after them in the wild.
 
 [00:31:37]
 If they saw that animal and they were looking for food, they would chase after them or they'd want to play with them as a toy, you know, that sort of thing. You see a lot of toys for animals that are shaped like other animals, like mouth, and I'm like, okay, that's so true. Especially cats and mice and rats. They're used to their toys looking. Like them.
 
 [00:32:01]
 So that would be a dynamic you'd have to be very much prepared for. Yeah.
 
 [00:32:09]
 My flatmate had a cat, Bowie, and he's wonderful. I love him so much. He would sit on the windowsill and just watch the rats. We never left them unsupervised. They would always be in the cage and he just watched them and he tried to get into their food container under the cage.
 
 [00:32:25]
 I think he was more interested in that, to be honest. But I would always say people just watch, just monitor for safety and don't look at someone else's rabbit and cat online and go, okay. Every single rabbit and cat is going to be like that. Right. Because they're not.
 
 [00:32:48]
 Bowie loved rabbits. He was best friends with a rabbit called Freya. They would groom each other and play and chase one another, but that's not going to be the case for every rabbit and cats. And I think having that kind of expectation can be potentially dangerous and you just end up disappointed if it doesn't end up that way. Right, yeah.
 
 [00:33:10]
 Because then you end up having to maybe rehome one of the pets that you were bonded to. But it's better to think about those things to start with and have something bad happen later on that can hurt one of the pets for yourself. Yeah. Or keeping them separate. You got to look at, like, how big your house is and the layout and all those kinds of things.
 
 [00:33:33]
 Having animals kind of sequestered to different parts of the house also adds a bit more work, keeping everyone interested and occupied and feeling like they have enough attention. Right. Yeah. My family currently includes a rescued possum, but he is in a well made cage with a lock that he can't get out of and the cats get into and they don't really mind each other. Sometimes I'll catch them watching each other or they like to watch the possum eat or something, but as long as we know they can't get to each other, that's the most important thing, is all of their safety.
 
 [00:34:11]
 Yes, we have possums here in New Zealand, but they are considered a pest, unfortunately. They're considered that here in the US as well. Okay. Yeah. No, it was complete accident.
 
 [00:34:24]
 My husband rescued a baby possum from being inside of school and so there was no family and no area to release him in. So now he lives in our house.
 
 [00:34:37]
 Yeah, it happens. It's one of those things. Yeah. So we talked a little bit about rabbits and you had mentioned to me a rescue in Auckland, New Zealand, that helps rabbits, called raining rabbits rescue. You want to talk a little bit about them?
 
 [00:34:53]
 Yes. It was a couple of years ago they started, I believe, but Joe had to correct me on that one. And they do amazing work in Auckland and in New Zealand in general. There's a lot of misinformation and low standards of care for rabbits with a lot of backyard breeding operations. A lot of people don't get their rabbits vaccinated or desexed or they buy them for their children and don't realize they're a potentially ten year commitment and they need a friend and they need a lot of room and a lot of activities.
 
 [00:35:27]
 And so we end up with a lot of rabbits that are dumped or rehomed, which is really sad. It's really awful and completely manmade. And so raining rabbits are based in Auckland, where I live, and they do an amazing job of rescuing and advocating for rabbits, and they do adoptions and all their rabbits are defects and checked over and vaccinated and yeah, they just do a lot of work about bringing awareness and encouraging good rabbit care. Going beyond the bare minimum. A hutch in the back garden with no attention is no way for anyone to live.
 
 [00:36:04]
 And they do a lot of work just helping people better the lives of their rabbits. And I really admire them because it's a very emotional position to be in a very taxing, and sometimes it can be very thankless if people don't appreciate all the work of doing or don't reciprocate the same as people would with, like, cat charities or dog charities. We have those so many here. Not that they are needed, but rabbits are often overlooked. A lot of small animals, skinny pigs, rats, for example they are often overlooked and not considered on the same kind of level of who deserves help or who deserves my compassion and care and financial assistance.
 
 [00:36:56]
 Yeah, that's so true. Sometimes we know a lot about a certain kind of animal, like dogs or cats even, and people can have all sorts of pets, but they also need to be treated the same. They all need to be given the same respect and care. And it sounds like backyard breeding is a big thing in your area for the rabbits. And oftentimes when we find out about breeding like that, they aren't taking care of them as well as they should be or they're not giving them the vet care they need.
 
 [00:37:27]
 So that sounds like amazing animal rescue, raising rabbits rescue. And I will post their links in the show notes so people can learn more about them. And I'll tag them on social when this episode comes out. So anybody who's a rabbit lover or wants to learn more about rabbits can learn from them and help educate other people as well.
 
 [00:37:51]
 So, as we wrap up our conversation, I have to say I've learned a lot from you about cat behavior. I consider myself a certified cat lady, but I can always learn more. And I think that's the important thing for listeners to hear is no matter how you've been a pet lover your whole life, you can always learn more to make the lives of your pets better. And it's always great to reach out to people who have information, who have training, whether it's a vet or a behaviorist or whatever it may be, that give your pets their best life. It's always good to reach out for help.
 
 [00:38:26]
 If you're not sure how to handle a behavior change or something like that. Yeah, it's okay to ask for help. I get a lot of people who are like, I was too embarrassed to do anything about it. And you don't have to be that it's okay to not know what's going on and understand something. Like, I'm not a mechanic, so if something is wrong with my car, I don't get it.
 
 [00:38:49]
 There's no logic to me being embarrassed or feeling like I don't deserve help for my car. It's just someone else is trained in that not that an animal is a car. It's like we take care of our houses or our cars, our human kids, ourselves. Yeah, exactly. When we adopt a pet, we're adopting them for their life, and we're committing ourselves to give them the best life possible.
 
 [00:39:17]
 Whether their life expectancy is three years, ten years, 20 years, we have to be prepared for that. And one thing I did want to ask you about before we finish up is I know you mentioned you have a heart cat named Frodo that you lost a few years ago, but it sounds like you guys had a really special bond. Yeah, he was one of my best friends. He was wonderful. Someone bought him into my clinic when he was about four weeks old and he was found with some chemical burns on his body.
 
 [00:39:51]
 And he was found under a truck in an industrial parking lot. And they couldn't find any other kittens or the mums, so they bought him in and he looked terrible, but he was a little fighter and he hated being in the cages. He'd, like, push his face against the bath to get out. So I ended up having him in, like a little almost like a little basket cage, and he'd sleep beside my bed at night, and he slowly recovered. And he had a couple of issues, dental issues, so he ended up like a gummy bear.
 
 [00:40:22]
 The kid in with, like, one or two teeth on each side, up and down. And despite that, he just turned into the most lovable boy. And me, I couldn't rehome him, and my mum was like, okay, yeah, we can't rehome this cat. And so we kept him and he just turned into the most wonderful cat. And he lacked a few cat skills.
 
 [00:40:44]
 Like, he wasn't the best at playing. I think that's just a lot of things with kittens that are raised just on their own with no other cats to kind of learn from that socialization that you miss out on. But he was so quirky, and it was more like a dog, to be honest. A lot of this kind of things. He was more like a dog, to be honest.
 
 [00:41:06]
 And yeah, I lost him when he was about six years old due to kidney failure, and that was really hard for me and my family to go through because he was one of us, and I think he really helped shape me into the cat person I am today. So I'm very grateful to have met him. Sounds like you guys had an amazing bond. I'm very sorry you lost him so young. That can be difficult to deal with.
 
 [00:41:38]
 Yeah, it's one of those things where it's out of your control. And it's just one of those things when you love someone, there's that risk of losing them in a really untimely way, but it kind of reminds you to just every day, if you're lucky enough to have someone be a human or a pet to love who loves you back, you're very lucky. Absolutely. Yeah. With any relationship, like you said, human or pet, we never know how long we're going to have them, and especially with our pets.
 
 [00:42:14]
 We know their lives are shorter than ours, but they can get sick easily, just like any human can, and I think that's an important thing. The grief can be hard and overwhelming, but all those moments you had with him make up for you losing him in the end, I think. Definitely. Yeah. It was so many so many good memories in such a short amount of time.
 
 [00:42:39]
 So yeah, it sounds like he kind of inspired you to become the cat counselor you are now and help other people have great relationships with their cats. Yeah, his quirks definitely kind of gave me a bit of insight into how socialization and cats or lack of can shape how they experience life later on and how they react to things. So I feel like that helped me understand my clients cats better. Yeah, our pets can be our greatest teachers sometimes, and then we can use what we learned to help other pets and other pet parents. Yeah.
 
 [00:43:22]
 Well, Molly, thank you so much for being here. It was great to meet you virtually all the way in New Zealand with me in California. I love people meeting people around the world and hearing their pet stories. And I think you've given us a lot of great information for pet parents, for cat moms and cat dads out there. If you're struggling or you want to learn something more about your cat, definitely check out Molly, the cat counselor, and I will link your information in the show notes as well.
 
 [00:43:51]
 And I just really appreciate your time today, being here with me and talking all about our amazing cats and other pets. Yes, it's been a blast. Thank you for having me. I'm always keen to talk about cats and animals in general. Yeah, I'm sorry, you don't want to hear about my cat.
 
 [00:44:12]
 Well, then you come to the wrong podcast or dog or horse or whatever it is. We talk about all the pets. But yeah, if listeners out there have questions about their own cats, their own pet behavior that they're seeing, when I post this on social, you'll be able to comment, and maybe Molly and I can do a live together and answer some of your questions at the same time. So that would be great. I really appreciate your time and your willingness to help others anytime.
 
 [00:44:43]
 Yeah, I love doing what I do and helping animals and their owners. It's a privilege. I love it. Absolutely. Okay, listeners, I will see you next time.
 
 [00:44:54]
 Thanks for being here.